A forum for discussion on consciousness, what it is, how it can be manipulated, with the ultimate goal of enabling its transference to another containment outside the human body.
Just wasted $1.99 on an "ai" app. Thought it would be interesting to explore artificial logic algorithms but this app missed the mark completely. In fact, it's a religious app and was prevented by it's programmers from logically seeing around its religious dogma. I feel badly burned and embarrassed by this experience. I should've read more of the reviews. My bad.
Tim Tyler and his thoughts on the Singularity are outstanding! You can see his video on YouTube. Titled, "Tim Tyler: Against the singularity". So, perhaps I should rename this blog?
I just picked up a book--"The Seat of The Soul" and it is attempting to isolate consciousness, it should proove interesting reading. I also just started a blog on here "Reincarnation an Unbiased Exploration" So I can chat with people exploring the continaution of the soul etc.
Patrick, thank you for the video recommendation. I'll watch other videos from Tim Tyler to better understand the points he makes.
What is interesting in this first video is his pointing out the need for clarity in the use of terms. Without this, we end up talking "at" each other, a rather less fruitful form of talking.
I wish I could pick up a copy of the book Chris is reading.
I have picked up, again, "Fooled by Randomness" which I think has a great perspective to provide on the promise of a future singularity as expressed by Ray Kurzweil.
So some insight from the book I'm reading and it has spawned a few thoughts... To become conscious requires that we operate at a level beyond the "five senses" AI in machines can repicate touch,taste,smell,see,and hear. But we as humans assign our own meaning to these inputs based on our individual perceptions which are filtered through our memories and life experiences our abilities and disabilities and our overall states of being. Conscienceness is what validates our physical existance and in my opinion our non-physical existance. Is works like a bridge network conecting us to physicality.
Tim Tyler is missing the point. Singularity as I see it is a commonplace from which all information comes from and can return to. I can barely watch that guy with his hair curling into his mouth! It is gross.
Wrenj, just checked the spam filter and nothing. When this eats what I've written, it's when I attempt to preview sometimes. I sometimes write in another text application and then cut and paste the final edition in the comment box here.
Here's another tiny problem with isolating consciousness. In my opinion(but also the opinion of many) consciousness of a soul exists outside of space-time at the same time another aspect of the same conscious individual remains within space time. It has "duel citizenship" and this is why I believe we are up against a brick wall.When we die and are out of body(at least for me) the space-time seams to work a little different. To move about as a spirit being simply requires thought and hardly even that.Movement is so instantaneous that you can move before you finish the thought.The desire or thought to move is basically an afterthought--it's hard to verbalize. I think this might be another angle of the "EPR Parodox".(New Scientist Sep 24, 1987)discussing the observation of instantaneous communication between two particles at a distance.
Do you believe the OBE/NDE experience is legitimate? If so, why? Really think about this. Could there be any other explanation for what people say they experience while in these states? I want to believe but I don't want my hopes to cloud my objectivity. Therefore I try to look for confounds to the evidence provided.
Chris gave me a book I enjoyed, "Spook. Science Tackles the Afterlife" by Mary Roach. Entertaining read and I liked her style very much. She covered a lot of ground.
The image is of a flower that grows in the alley behind my house. I used a macro lens on a warm spring morning. I sized the image to exactly fit an iPhone. Feel free to copy it and use it on your phone.
A confound that bothers me; How can it be that someone could possibly suffer trauma / disease, etc (to the point that they become lethargic, (drunkenness is another similar situation.)), if we reside in a dimension outside our body, then when the body is damaged how can we not report to others that we are "still inside", "It's still ME in here" etc? Even a basic digital communication of one for yes and two for no should be a simple affair for an otherwise undamaged consciousness to convey via a body regardless of function deficit. Analysis of this phenomenon should prove enlightening regardless of outcome.
EPR Paradox sounds like "zero point energy". I experienced this during meditation once. I saw a woman that I felt I knew though I never saw her before. She had a kindly look as if she was my mother or a family member. When I finally looked into her eyes, I suddenly lost locality. I was everywhere and nowhere at once. It lasted only a few moments before my mind couldn't handle it anymore. It's never happened before or since. I will never forget it.
That is why in some cases I believe the soul leaves the body and what is left is a truly unconscious piece of man-meat.
On that consciousness show I watched they went into all that and did a real time cognition expirament with a vegitative women and showed that she was able to think and proscess information in hre brain just as a normal person could doing the same tests. She was conscious but 100% unresponsive all the way to her pupils but her brain lit up like normal on an eeg type MRI. She was truely traped in oblivion and they could proove it.Kind of sad actually.
I'm also willing to believe that what I saw regarding that familiar woman could be the product of stress, fatigue and imagination. I had just begun to relax and perhaps the act of relaxing released a chemical reaction in my mind helping to produce fanciful thoughts like this?
That's just it. There's no proof. Just conjecture. That woman in oblivion is quite the observation though. However, who's to say that she experienced any of these stimuli? Sure her brain reacted but we know nothing of consciousness. She could be dead for all practical purposes, if her awareness is stopped. Who's to know?
Well, good question. I stopped believing in a great many things because there was simply no proof for any of it. A blind faith led me to make some grievous mistakes, for which I am still paying dearly. When I say that I'm willing to believe in something, it is a calculated risk that a certain set of variables are true. In the above case, it was that I was willing to believe a chemical explanation for a fantastic event over the idea that other fantastic events precipitated a fantastic event.
So then, to stop believing in something would be logical if you had no proof for it's existence and/or proof for it's non-existence.
In the example of chemical production of fantastic events, I chose to be willing to believe that because we have proof that chemistry has an effect on our thoughts and perceptions. We have no proof whatsoever in spirits. Offer me some solid evidence and I'll eagerly eat it up and ponder it with all diligence. The eyewitness testimonies of NDE/OBE people is the best evidence we have of the supernatural and even that is heresay. I do however understand how implicitly difficult it would be to establish proof of such things. One good proof would be a locked sealed cabinet with a large card with a number written upon it. Have a light source inside this cabinet too. Place this cabinet in the ER of some hospital and when someone who has a NDE tells the staff the correct number written on the card, this would be evidence. Have this happen time and time again, then this would create a new branch of science. Humans are curious. If these things happen, nothing could hold its exploration back from mainstream science.
Before we see the reasons would be prejudice. After we see the reasons would be good science.
Wrenj, the above post got nuked and had I not saved it to a text program alongside my browser, I would have had to rewrite it from memory. What happened is this; I hit "Post Comment" and then a page loaded saying "Sorry, we could not process your request" or something similar. When I hit the back button I returned to this blog exactly the way it was prior to my writing anything. That's right, no trace of anything I spent the past 30 minutes composing.
TextEdit in Mac (or Notepad in Windows) would work just fine.
Belief comes from making observations with our own eyes. Then there is faith. Faith also comes from direct experience and observation but also the want for something to be "true". Then there is a whole grey area of unverifiable recollection. People will swear 19 different ways that what they say is acurate,factual and true. The problem comes when you put two observers in a room you wind up with two similar but different accounts. Those differences can be a problem from an accuracy standpoint but you also have the common information. When the information from thousands of observations is say 75% identical/or similar in key ways then it gains much credibility and it becomes quasi-factual. As these similar observetions keep piling up it is as close to empirical proof as is possible in these areas.
The entire christian religion has zero reported direct observations, yet people put their faith in it.Why?--only God knows! OBE's-NDE's and past life regressions have thousands of living people who all have reported numerous details in common. Which one does common sense warrent faith in? I'll go with the people of whom I can look in to their eye as they recount their experiences and take what they have to say under seroius consideration. That is precisely what I have done myself.
My own NDE was a life changing event in that I immediately became aware that what the bible has to say regarding the afterlife is just not the case. It forced me to take the hardest look inside myself if I wanted to be at peace with my own set of beliefs. It became painfully obvious that the christian faith is based on nothing but cunjecture on the part of people who had literally a tiny fraction of the info we have at our disposal in this day and age. In my mind God would want us to utilize the observations and information we have in this time and base our belief systems on that. That is just what I have done and I have been at total peace since.
Absolutely correct Chris!!! I put my stock in those OBE/NDE'ers who in my opinion are eyewitnesses to something fantastic. Just exactly what this fantastic might be is up for scrutiny but I still would rather consider their statements over any of the canonized tripe circulating in our globe today. Another supportive observation is that these completely disparate people report similar things.
Chris says belief comes from making observations with our own eyes.
In one sense, everything comes down to this: we simply must believe what our eyes tell us. We take things in through the senses, reason, come back to reality apprehended through the senses, confirm or deny, reason some more...the senses play the vital bridge.
Without a first belief in the data coming through this bridge, and continual reversion to the data coming through this bridge, everything may as well be an illusion.
There are many interesting paths that lead from this point.
One could ask about what happens to the data that comes via the senses. The signals from the eyes to the depths of the central nervous system can be traced. The signals flowing in the other direction can also be traced. Such pathways are clear from a biological point of view.
Human experience indicates that much more happens.
- What happens when this data is mishandled?
- When is the mishandling a malfunction of the organs?
- When is it a malfunction of the mind (mistaken reasoning)?
- When is it a malfunction of a moral order (of character), which we refer to as evil?
- Could these different kinds of malfunction be the result of deliberate choice?
Another path explores other bridges to the human person.
- Is it only data via the senses that can demand assent of the human being?
Chris had an OBE/NDE experience. He has given assent to data that seems to have come via other channels. He is not unique in having such an experience.
Are there other channels that operate outside the context of an OBE/NDE experience?
For practical purposes, we could listen to the speech of Steve Jobs given in Stanford University. Among other things, he points out:
- the need to believe (by implication in an ultimate purpose, an ultimate resolution)
- that it's harder to connect the dots looking forward, but much easier looking backward.
This could almost be a recast of the words of Augustine of Hippo centuries earlier: faith is believing in what we don't see, and the reward of faith is seeing what we believe.
Does this "believing and then seeing" sequence explain Martin Luther King's speech, "I have a dream"?
Does it explain road walked by the frail and fragile Mahathma Gandhi, who took on the might of the British Empire, with weapons of truth and non-violence, believing that he would win freedom, and inspiring millions of others to believe him, even if they didn't quite believe the power of the weapons?
It seems other bridges to the human being exist. Whenever the rubber has met the road in the past, and when it does in the present, human beings continue to act and produce results believing the data coming via other bridges, despite the data through the senses sending a completely contrary message.
Everyone who has taken a beating, in the name truth, can testify to that.
It would be something if we actually achieve a digital immortality, all the while there being a vibrant and very much alive eternal dimension awaiting each of us when our bodies finally wear out.
But hey, what's very large numbers when compared with other very large numbers anyway? I just don't want to believe in a bridge that is delusional or false and be left with no numbers at all.
There is acute perception contained in Bon Jovi's song: Keep the faith
The lyrics are here: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/bon+jovi/keep+the+faith_20022217.html
Maybe the gems of truth within, found resonance in many young hearts, and as in my case, has been cherished since then.
The data that came via the ears when hearing the lyrics, or via the eyes when reading the lyrics, provoked something bigger than the mere arrangement of musical notes, or letters of the alphabet, or a mere arrangement of words.
Something leaped off the song, and went straight inside.
Patrick, I hardly think that people ordinarily set out to believe falsehoods. Error usually propagates with some admixture of truth inside as the enabling quality.
Impersonation illustrates this very well. It is not necessary to replicate every detail of the person in question, just a few key details. With this the impersonator finds the acceptance required; the opening of the doors of hearts and minds (and in many cases bank accounts, safes and much else.)
We humans are poorly equipped to examine each and every argument, if only for the lack of time. So much of our lives run on faith.
The truth, often then, is discovered, after the effects of what was false had fully played itself out with effects that simply could not be ignored. Maybe, for years prior to that, people lived trying to ignore or escape the obvious.
One example is the experience of Winston Churchill. He had long spoken against the evils of Nazism. But he kept losing election after election until the schemes and designs of the Nazi regime became obvious and simply could not be ignored. The price of blindness or evasion had become too high.
A fictitious example of with this theme of blindness and evasion, at about the same time in history, has been excellently portrayed in the book, "The Remains of the day" by Kazuo Ishiguro.
I recommend with equal vigor, the film adaptation, starring Anthony Hopkins, Emma Thompson and one of my favorite childhood heroes, Superman aka Christopher Reeve.
A concluding question: if we as humans are so liable to deception and manipulation, how then can we avoid this and the disasters that often follow as a consequence?
I think many people are perfectly satisfied in a corrupt belief system knowing full well that the dogma in which they have placed their faith is not the 100% "truth". Because in many cases "truth" is relative and people have an inate need to believe in something higher than themselves.
I've been investigating the differences between "life","conscoiusness" and "soul". If you want to quantify consciousness then you need to establish what part of it. Consciousness seems to be multi-faceted. There is the "spark" or physical energy source that powers cells. I think this would be the easiest of all the facetes to synthesize. Then at some point a system to manage this cluster of cells is needed this system seems to be tied to basic DNA instructions. Then at some point a higher system turns on to govern the management system Kind of like a layered operating ststem. Again this governor must be driven by DNA at the basic level. Maybe consciousness is controlled and "handed out" by the DNA--It must be. So isolating consciousness may very well play out in the interpretation of genome mapping.
Just got back from the ER. I'm fine for now but I remember one predominant thought as I was being examined by the doctors; just how much I resented my biology and how limited I am by this present containment. I am stuck inside this body with no provision for backup. What a perilous existence we all share. Future generations will look upon us and marvel over how we lived, risking everything. Reckless mavericks all.
I consider Ray Kurzweil's timeline and think, "Oh, I can make that. I'll surely survive that long.". I would guess that's my "faith" for what are the odds even if I can deliver myself on time?
"A concluding question: if we as humans are so liable to deception and manipulation, how then can we avoid this and the disasters that often follow as a consequence?"
In a word, "information".
As evidenced by declining religious populations, it's difficult to decieve an informed population. Even simple lessons learned by kids sharing experiences on YouTube, we are an informed network of eyewitnesses and it's okay to question. Less and less is finding strength in the occult and esoteric. In fact, I would presume such labeling to be a weakness as throngs of individuals can google and then blog about whatever the topic. If subterfuge or lack of substance is discovered, the motivation to persist decreases.
I delight that this is happening on its own naturally, so no one group or party can claim it for their own. This is a first for our species and we're seeing oppression erode as an evolutionary consequence.
Guys, that link I posted a little while ago touches on consciousness emerging in artificial platforms as well. Awareness/sentience/consciousness would all be classed as something greater than the sum of its parts correct?
The only problem I have with people getting their "truth" form Google and the info-sphere out there is that so often information is manipulated and dis-information put forward as hard fact. Most people will look something up one time and take what they found as fact because it was from the internet or wikipedia.Honestly when you do a search how many different sources do you seek out to make sure that you are getting a well rounded less biased interpretation of a subject? I rarely look further than the first page or two of hits.
I have found so many falshoods and untruths being put out on line. I really wonder about the motives behind this sometimes.
As our society becomes more and more reliant on the highly filtered and shaped information available through just a few major social media sights it has the potential to turn us into a bunch of brainwashed automatons.
We really are now subject to a new form of opression through manipulation of our social media sites and what is put in front of us when we query the almighty Google.
Patrick, have you taken all the facts into account to see if Ray Kurzweil's hypotheses meets tests of adequacy?
We have seen the existence of other bridges to the human being. The article you referred to extrapolates on the basis of comparing trends in computing to the capabilities of visible structures that explain one bridge.
Ray Kurzweil does not take into account other bridges, which repeatedly challenge the theses that there's only one bridge.
Chris's experience bears this out. Take his description of motion. Without additional technology or tools, it happened as he willed it.
Another question: where is the evidence of declining religious populations in the world?
The most severe declines in population currently are in parts of Eastern Europe. These regions were officially atheistic for close to a century.
The other declines being encountered are in Western Europe which again has rejected outright Marxism but not atheism. Japan too is declining.
Now take developing geographies: South America, the Middle East, Africa, Asia. There seems to be a remarkable correlation between religious belief and population growth.
And remember in most of these countries, information is accessible like never before.
Take only Western Europe or North America. Which sub-populations show the greatest sign of growth in these regions? Again one sees the correlation between religious belief and population growth.
Correlations do not necessarily indicate causation, but there are correlations that require deeper study, since they are simply impossible to ignore.
Check the facts for yourself and see where they lead to.
Chris has expressed something that I am unable to ignore.
We have no way of knowing "a priori" about the truth of something. Then data comes in, reasoning takes place and conclusions are drawn. How do we know, our conclusions are right? In the physical sciences, there's only one way: testing. We test the conclusion for adequacy, to see if it explains the facts.
Interestingly, the progress of science shows the complete overturning of established theories with remarkable regularity. Newton's laws are not invalid now. They simply seem inadequate at certain distances and speeds. They seem to give way, in certain conditions, to other laws.
If this, which is really commonsense, applies in the physical sciences, why should it not apply to accessing information on the internet? There are many points of potential error and manipulation between creation, transmission, delivery and assimilation.
Journalists, filmmakers, lawyers and programmers (to name just a few) can attest to it. The New York Times has experienced it, in areas related to news reporting as well reading the market correctly for its survival as a business enterprise. The US government is experiencing it at the moment on domestic as well as international fronts. Even the Pope seems unable to escape unscathed.
To take the phrase popular in Google, "Do no evil!" as an established fact, rather than as an aspiration of the people working there, is to either believe that everyone within is an angel, or in some mysterious way, incapable of mistakes.
A case in point, is Warren Buffet's announcement about a successor and how that choice in retrospect, seems to have been inadequate. I can hardly name another man, with sounder judgement in his field, and less resources to provide access to information for decision making in his field, than the Oracle of Omaha.
Access to information is part of it, but does it explain all of it?
You may have me here Wrenj... "Making half vast assumptions based on half vast data", (that's a pun). My data is old in regards to declining religious foundations in the world. I will have to check my sources. It was presented to me about 10 years ago and I can see it bearing out here at home as well. The local churches are dwindling with an aging adherent group.
As an aside, might I recommend www.godisimaginary.com or www.whywontgodhealamputees.com
Okay, a cursory browsing landed me on the wiki for religious demographics worldwide and I found the trends about two-thirds of the way down... Shows a steady decline in growth. Now, there's not a recession of rates but at least the growth is slowing. Chris suggested that data available online and particularly in the wiki's are suspect so I may be propagating falsehoods here, but this is the URL nonetheless:
I can also understand an increase in numbers reported by virtue of newly freed demographic groups. With the fall of the iron curtain, I'm sure the numbers of say, the Orthodox Christians have exploded when in reality their ranks have not changed appreciably or have declined. Poorer nations may be reporting increases simply because their data gathering capabilities have gotten better?
Also to quote the wiki page, "Studies conducted by the Pew Research Center have found that, generally, poorer nations had a larger proportion of citizens who found religion to be very important than richer nations, with the exceptions of the United States and Kuwait."
Can you illuminate any particular demographic data that would suggest a resurgence of religious faith?
Hmmm, be interesting if the whole world turned Buddhist. I've never heard of atrocities committed in the name of Buddha -lol
As for Kurzweil's lack of alternate bridges, you're correct and his film "Transcendent Man" gives face time to plenty of detractors, who explain why his ideas won't work.
And yes, that website is pretty monobridgian (new word) too. Nevertheless, I thought it was encouraging to read. It built bridges of imagination and design into my own mind and let me think of new things in a new way. Like taking a step back and reassessing what I know in the light of what I just learned and trying to envision the possibilities. It made me happy. Especially seeing how old that paper was and feeling just how contemporary it still is.
As for what Chris experienced; that alone pulled me away from a battle hardened atheistic shell. (It was his experience that I mentioned in the introduction to this blog). I am willing to consider such things as valid…but it is also my duty and responsibility to consider every possible confound to it as well. I don't state as fact that it was a fantastic event caused chemically, I state as conjecture that it might have been. To not add that as a possibility, to me, seems reckless.
For example, in the past I have experienced Astral Travel. Or at least I thought I did. I have experienced motion in a fantastic way in "real time" and in other planes. ("real time" means the world that we live in now). My experiences were similar to those of others who claim to have done the same thing i.e., "astral travel". Could I prove any of it to myself? No. If I could have gone into my neighbors house and peered into their closet and then later really go there in the flesh and see exactly the same thing (having never seen it before), then that would've been proof for me. Did anything of the sort happen? Maybe. I revisited my old hometown last year. I was driven down streets and neighborhoods that I haven't seen in over 20 years. The area has seen tremendous growth in that time. I felt as if I knew what it looked like, having never seen the new growth. I explained it to the person with me BEFORE arriving at certain places and buildings. I was eerily accurate. Proof? Maybe. I am open to possible confounds that could offer a more rational explanation. It does however make me smile.
Is there anything better that when your ice cold cat jumps on your lap fresh from outdoors all plush and soft with her thick cold fur and cold wet nose all while purring at top volume and so gratefull for your attention?
I think there are many different causations for the decline in the "church". How does the attendance at church reflect the upward trend in population numbers world wide? Also I have to think the whole pedophilia scandal still going on in the Catholic church and others too is a huge driver of dropping attendance. Also the church delivers an outdated message as they try to reconcile their teachings to align with modern thought but the gap just continues to widen. We live in an age of high technology etc and the church has nothing in common with modern culture.
Maybe we should start a new religion with updated beliefs and "holy scripture" to appeal to the modern masses. I think a fresh look at spirituality and the human condition would proove to be wildly popular in this modern era.
Wrenj, you referred to a culture at Google of "do no evil" is that their corporate motto? do they actually ascribe to "do no evil" as a dogma of corporate policy? It sounds quasi-religious.
Patrick, thank you for saving my musings from the innards of blogger. There's still a post that's missing. Blogger has cut me deep like donkey put it in Shrek...LOL
Chris, "Do no evil" is a slogan coined by some engineer in Google. It's not a dogmatic axiom. It's an aspiration, a noble aspiration.
I do not think that they meant to imply that only they "do no evil" while other companies or the rest of us are doing otherwise.
I was only suggesting that neither Google nor we should get carried away by confusing a noble aspiration for an established fact.
They've been trying to live up to it especially in countries where religious, economic and political freedom is still a luxury. Google’s publicly expressed, primary mission “to organize the world‘s information and make it universally accessible and useful” can become tough in a world full of interests with goals other than truth.
How is it possible to "organize" if you can't even lay your hands on the information for instance? There may be some obvious places that come to mind. There are some non-obvious ones too. I found the following interesting:
Patrick, you talk about seeing religious decline around you. I would not disagree with that. If you lived in other parts of the world, you'd have a different opinion with the number of churches, mosques and temples going up.
Imagine if you were living in a land of sunshine, beaches, music and more legal and illegal use of marijuana. You'd find this:
On a more serious note, I found the following very interesting:
http://richleebruce.com/mystat.html
Other pages in the same site seem to suggest an overall decline in atheism. There are also some very interesting remarks about the correlations between education and religion. Apparently the correlation is the reverse of popular assumptions. The author makes no attempt to hide his beliefs.
I may be wrong, but I suspect that the greatest decline in most religions in North America and Europe has been encountered by those streams within each that has most actively tried to "modernize" themselves by adopting more politically correct beliefs and practices.
It seems to be that the more they try to become like "everybody else", the less there is that is unique about them, leading actually to less of them.
I was surprised to learn Jamaica takes a dim view on drug use and that it's illegal there. My thoughts were that it was a stoner paradise but that assumption was dead wrong. Personally I do not use street drugs. If you were wondering if my "astral trips" were drug induced, they weren't. All of my "fantastic events" were experienced with a clear mind.
My use of the term "chemical" when it comes to a possible explanation for fantastic events simply implies that our brain is electro-chemical. Therefore chemistry be it natural or artificial is still chemistry. Just thought to define this. My previous use of the phrase was assuming a natural chemistry.
Again Chris is onto something about pedophilia and it's role in church attendance, or at the very least the perception about churches.
But here again is a telling description of an encounter recounted by the Catholic bishop of New York:
http://blog.archny.org/
Earlier I mentioned the potential and possibility of error as well as manipulation in the creation, transmission, delivery and assimilation of information. I think I should add one more word there: editing.
It seems if the facts were fully published, people would have more to fear from schools and families than churches.
A Harvard Professor, who's been known to sue Catholic cardinals and bishops had this interesting take about the pedophilia scandals and the role of the current Pope:
Earlier, I had said that describing the 20th century as "a century of blood" would not be too far off the mark.
Institutions of all kinds, religious ones included, are full of people who live in a universe where evil is not only around but inside us humans. It often feels like a battle of cosmic proportions. People, institutions, societies and entire civilizations are capable of mistakes (deliberate as well as unintended) with very tragic consequences.
If we go by how much evil has actually occurred and by how much evil gets accepted and acknowledged, how much responsibility is taken, how many apologies and how much restitution (in some form) is made, and how much reform is undertaken to minimize future recurrence, being anything else seems hard to match being Catholic.
However I have read that the drug "Ketamine" induces an OBE. It was used as an anesthetic but discontinued due to patient complaints. It's only use is veterinary currently. People have experimented with its effects however. If I were to try drug use, this would be the one. I would love to study the OBE in a controlled setting and get some real data on this phenomenon, be it rational science or fantastic event or both.
Patrick, I'm glad to hear that your experiences were not induced by chemicals. I personally have had no such experiences.
Well, as a kid, I used to get this ringing sensation in my ears, and earnestly wished (and half believed) that if I pulled my shirt off and jumped from a window, it would just be like in Superman the movie, when Lex Luthor gets across to him using ordinarily inaudible frequencies.
At that time, my belief in Superman was certain, despite my class teacher, and several adults, stating unequivocally to me and a group of like-minded friends that Superman was just a movie.
This brings me back to the topic of the Singularity. I am convinced that a universe where a greater integration of machines in the life of human beings, will be like Star Wars: amazing spaceships, robots, weapons, planets and dramatic battles.
I intend to watch Superman the movie and Bruce Almighty for some entertainment but also to recall some revealing dialogue about aspects of being human.
Superman is unable to read the mind of Lex Luthor. Bruce is unable to compel his girlfriend to love him.
So far neither of the obstacles have been overcome with technology. Which is not to say that manipulation does not happen, or is not happening, using less than noble means.
Compared to how our presidents did things 20+ years ago and despite what anyone might say, we are in a time of government openness and transparity like never before in history.
The thing you will find with many people who have a NDE is that what they experienced became their truth and that is fine for those people including myself. I have no need at all to try and prostheletize my experience and tell the world and become a missionary for the NDE people.
I have come to see the big picture and now have a complete understanding of religious motivation and drive. I am at 100% peace with dying and with the whole death experience. Death for me is actually an opportunity to become free of this restrictive brain and thought proscess by returning to my natural 100% complete state. So far out of all my human experiences dying was so awesome and so superior to anything else that it is truely incomperable. The closest analogy I can draw is to take the best sex you've ever had combined with the best drugs you've ever done and any thing else that blew your mind and multiply it by 1000 times and you will be near to the dying experience. The feeling is indescribably good.
With the context I have now I find it kind or hard to want to encourage people to seek life extending treatments from their doctors once they get past 70 or so. I am not endorsing euthanasia but there is just no payoff in extending your life past the time that you are able to get real enjoyment out of your body.
Bearing that in mind I can now see a problem with maintaining conscoiusness outside of your body trappped in some computer RAM etc.If you were to do that you would possibly be stuck in the computer and unable to restore your soul. In a sense it could deny your soul an intellect and a life spirit. Just my own thoughts--I still fancy the idea of being able to assign consciousness at will.
As soon as I read about the book sales and movie deal I knew I was being hustled a bill of goods. You find this stuff all over this country, like a traveling circus, hitting churches and selling books, tapes, videos, hats, shirts, etc.
I wonder if little kids in China or Ethiopia or Columbia see a caucasian jesus when they have NDE's? Especially if they're raised Buddhist or some other non christian faith...
LOL...Does this fit with your suspicion of an economic explanation for everything? How would you explain Chris's story then?
What is becoming clear is that some people have had OBEs/NDEs whether they met Jesus or Elvis Presley.
There seems to be not only bridges to the human being, other than the nervous pathways, but a whole level of experience and existence that matches nothing we seem to be familiar with.
The question is "Can a test based on purely material changes (temperature, position and other material properties) suffice to adequately cover an experience that seems to overcome materiality?"
This reminds me of a letter written by a bunch of Physics undergraduates to the creators of Superman who had claimed that he moves faster than light.
The students proved with rigor and exactitude why by Einstein's theory of relativity, this was impossible. They received a reply saying "You deal with theory, whereas we deal with facts!"
Well, I still think the best test for OBE's is the "what's in the box?" test. I may be a heretical skeptic but I am human and I still have an expiration date. So, I'm still pushing for some evidence rather than discarding all of this as just so much rubbish. People do experience something. I want to know what that something is exactly. All this test requires is information. Even though these fantastic events introduce wildly new concepts of reality, information is something that remains pretty consistent. So telling me what's in the box should be a simple affair yet one that will turn science around. A cool million would be a bonus too.
Scalpel for the soul, I like that. If this and other experiments fail, we would do well to be keen on exactly how they failed. After all, this is illuminating subconscious processes and ultimately conscious awareness too.
Thank you Patrick. I use borrowed phrases to appear to have something within...the skull.
Please, could we start a new post? This seems to have become quite long. I think we have arrive at some stable points.
However, you could summarize the points we've discussed here, in the next post, to create a sense of continuity.
My contribution to the summary are three points. I suggest:
- Claims of OBE/NDE experiences are abundant.
- These and other experiences, indicate the existence of other sources of and bridges for data to the human being, apart from purely biological structures.
- These claims need investigating.
- The question is how?
I can't wait to get to the part of talking about Light Sabers, Obi Wan Kenobi and the Force...LOL.
I have come across several accounts of operating room personell placing signs on top of equipment and shelf tops which would only be visable if viewed from the ceiling. These people do tell of dead patients comming back and reporting the signs. This has been repeated many times and you can easily call it up on a google search.
As far as seeing Jesus goes the kid either saw his spirit guide and confused it for Jesus or he somehow willed Jesus to appear and he did.
I realize I speak about stuff that is pure conjecture but in my reality it works.
Wrenj--Do you have a background in any sort of engineering by chance? I have a very interesting idea to modulate the existing water in the air anywhere to create a holigraphic display or any shape display out of thin air.
It just needs some lab time somewhere to figure out the details. The idea in a nutshell is to create a small xmtr that can transmit just the right frequency to break the h2o mollecules suspended in the air and create a fog on whicjh an immage can be projected vie a tiny lazer or led projector like in a pen sized device.
I need a true 0 MHz-Xray transmitter good for a kilowatt PEP. A small assortment of antenna making supplies and an ocilloscope etc--Just your basic work bench and small lab stuff. I already have much of it but not the transmitter. I already have figured out a design for a high voltage but super small power supply to fit in a standard dd flashlight housing.
Chris, "0 MHz to X-Ray transmitter", you mean a literal DC to light broadbanded transmitter? I don't think such a thing exists. After microwave you have to generate your spectrum in different ways. Like HeNe reactions for red monochromatic light for example. X-Rays require high voltage and gasses for oscillation I believe. Your antennas are apertures instead of resonant lengths of metal as well.
Thought: wouldn't a water vapor imaging system be more affected by audio frequencies? Consider shock normals on sonic bodies in atmosphere.
Shock / sonic effects would vary the pressure and hence condense out the vapor (make cloud). RF and higher would heat the vapor and have the opposite effect of condensation.
Just wasted $1.99 on an "ai" app. Thought it would be interesting to explore artificial logic algorithms but this app missed the mark completely. In fact, it's a religious app and was prevented by it's programmers from logically seeing around its religious dogma. I feel badly burned and embarrassed by this experience. I should've read more of the reviews. My bad.
ReplyDeleteTim Tyler and his thoughts on the Singularity are outstanding! You can see his video on YouTube. Titled, "Tim Tyler: Against the singularity". So, perhaps I should rename this blog?
ReplyDeleteI just picked up a book--"The Seat of The Soul" and it is attempting to isolate consciousness, it should proove interesting reading. I also just started a blog on here "Reincarnation an Unbiased Exploration" So I can chat with people exploring the continaution of the soul etc.
ReplyDeleteOk folks. I'm back again. Having scheduling problems.
ReplyDeleteFirst thoughts in this round.
Everyone probably thinks of the questions we're pondering about. A few have written about it.
Maybe we should start a reading list to discuss.
What I meant was start a reading list, and discuss each work as we add and read.
ReplyDeletePatrick, thank you for the video recommendation. I'll watch other videos from Tim Tyler to better understand the points he makes.
ReplyDeleteWhat is interesting in this first video is his pointing out the need for clarity in the use of terms. Without this, we end up talking "at" each other, a rather less fruitful form of talking.
I wish I could pick up a copy of the book Chris is reading.
I have picked up, again, "Fooled by Randomness" which I think has a great perspective to provide on the promise of a future singularity as expressed by Ray Kurzweil.
So some insight from the book I'm reading and it has spawned a few thoughts...
ReplyDeleteTo become conscious requires that we operate at a level beyond the "five senses" AI in machines can repicate touch,taste,smell,see,and hear. But we as humans assign our own meaning to these inputs based on our individual perceptions which are filtered through our memories and life experiences our abilities and disabilities and our overall states of being. Conscienceness is what validates our physical existance and in my opinion our non-physical existance. Is works like a bridge network conecting us to physicality.
Tim Tyler is missing the point. Singularity as I see it is a commonplace from which all information comes from and can return to.
ReplyDeleteI can barely watch that guy with his hair curling into his mouth! It is gross.
That is why I was asking patrick the definition of "singularity" as he is using it.
ReplyDeleteOk. I seem to have lost the last post. Gremlins again...
ReplyDeleteWrenj, just checked the spam filter and nothing. When this eats what I've written, it's when I attempt to preview sometimes. I sometimes write in another text application and then cut and paste the final edition in the comment box here.
ReplyDeleteHere's another tiny problem with isolating consciousness. In my opinion(but also the opinion of many) consciousness of a soul exists outside of space-time at the same time another aspect of the same conscious individual remains within space time. It has "duel citizenship" and this is why I believe we are up against a brick wall.When we die and are out of body(at least for me) the space-time seams to work a little different. To move about as a spirit being simply requires thought and hardly even that.Movement is so instantaneous that you can move before you finish the thought.The desire or thought to move is basically an afterthought--it's hard to verbalize. I think this might be another angle of the "EPR Parodox".(New Scientist Sep 24, 1987)discussing the observation of instantaneous communication between two particles at a distance.
ReplyDeleteI would like to see Tyler's thoughts on the EPR paradox.
ReplyDeleteDo you believe the OBE/NDE experience is legitimate? If so, why? Really think about this. Could there be any other explanation for what people say they experience while in these states? I want to believe but I don't want my hopes to cloud my objectivity. Therefore I try to look for confounds to the evidence provided.
ReplyDeleteChris gave me a book I enjoyed, "Spook. Science Tackles the Afterlife" by Mary Roach. Entertaining read and I liked her style very much. She covered a lot of ground.
Finally updated my profile -lol
ReplyDeleteThe image is of a flower that grows in the alley behind my house. I used a macro lens on a warm spring morning. I sized the image to exactly fit an iPhone. Feel free to copy it and use it on your phone.
A confound that bothers me; How can it be that someone could possibly suffer trauma / disease, etc (to the point that they become lethargic, (drunkenness is another similar situation.)), if we reside in a dimension outside our body, then when the body is damaged how can we not report to others that we are "still inside", "It's still ME in here" etc? Even a basic digital communication of one for yes and two for no should be a simple affair for an otherwise undamaged consciousness to convey via a body regardless of function deficit. Analysis of this phenomenon should prove enlightening regardless of outcome.
ReplyDeleteEPR Paradox sounds like "zero point energy". I experienced this during meditation once. I saw a woman that I felt I knew though I never saw her before. She had a kindly look as if she was my mother or a family member. When I finally looked into her eyes, I suddenly lost locality. I was everywhere and nowhere at once. It lasted only a few moments before my mind couldn't handle it anymore. It's never happened before or since. I will never forget it.
ReplyDeleteThat was probably your spirit guide
ReplyDeleteThat is why in some cases I believe the soul leaves the body and what is left is a truly unconscious piece of man-meat.
ReplyDeleteOn that consciousness show I watched they went into all that and did a real time cognition expirament with a vegitative women and showed that she was able to think and proscess information in hre brain just as a normal person could doing the same tests. She was conscious but 100% unresponsive all the way to her pupils but her brain lit up like normal on an eeg type MRI.
She was truely traped in oblivion and they could proove it.Kind of sad actually.
When researching causality it is very tempting to go with the first and most easily observable solution to a problem.
ReplyDeleteNot all sequences and processes work in reverse.
ReplyDeleteI'm also willing to believe that what I saw regarding that familiar woman could be the product of stress, fatigue and imagination. I had just begun to relax and perhaps the act of relaxing released a chemical reaction in my mind helping to produce fanciful thoughts like this?
ReplyDeleteThat's just it. There's no proof. Just conjecture. That woman in oblivion is quite the observation though. However, who's to say that she experienced any of these stimuli? Sure her brain reacted but we know nothing of consciousness. She could be dead for all practical purposes, if her awareness is stopped. Who's to know?
Thank you Patrick for the suggestion.
ReplyDeleteI'm enjoying every bit of this conversation, though hardly with enough time to contribute.
One question:
Patrick said "...willing to believe..."
Why? Why does belief come in?
Is it after or before we see the reasons?
For example, when I first came across this blog, why did I believe that it was a person who created it and not "something" else?
Why do we stop believing in some things?
Oops. That's a lot of questions. I apologize.
ReplyDeleteWell, good question. I stopped believing in a great many things because there was simply no proof for any of it. A blind faith led me to make some grievous mistakes, for which I am still paying dearly. When I say that I'm willing to believe in something, it is a calculated risk that a certain set of variables are true. In the above case, it was that I was willing to believe a chemical explanation for a fantastic event over the idea that other fantastic events precipitated a fantastic event.
ReplyDeleteSo then, to stop believing in something would be logical if you had no proof for it's existence and/or proof for it's non-existence.
In the example of chemical production of fantastic events, I chose to be willing to believe that because we have proof that chemistry has an effect on our thoughts and perceptions. We have no proof whatsoever in spirits. Offer me some solid evidence and I'll eagerly eat it up and ponder it with all diligence. The eyewitness testimonies of NDE/OBE people is the best evidence we have of the supernatural and even that is heresay. I do however understand how implicitly difficult it would be to establish proof of such things. One good proof would be a locked sealed cabinet with a large card with a number written upon it. Have a light source inside this cabinet too. Place this cabinet in the ER of some hospital and when someone who has a NDE tells the staff the correct number written on the card, this would be evidence. Have this happen time and time again, then this would create a new branch of science. Humans are curious. If these things happen, nothing could hold its exploration back from mainstream science.
Before we see the reasons would be prejudice.
After we see the reasons would be good science.
Wrenj, the above post got nuked and had I not saved it to a text program alongside my browser, I would have had to rewrite it from memory. What happened is this; I hit "Post Comment" and then a page loaded saying "Sorry, we could not process your request" or something similar. When I hit the back button I returned to this blog exactly the way it was prior to my writing anything. That's right, no trace of anything I spent the past 30 minutes composing.
ReplyDeleteTextEdit in Mac (or Notepad in Windows) would work just fine.
Belief comes from making observations with our own eyes. Then there is faith. Faith also comes from direct experience and observation but also the want for something to be "true". Then there is a whole grey area of unverifiable recollection. People will swear 19 different ways that what they say is acurate,factual and true.
ReplyDeleteThe problem comes when you put two observers in a room you wind up with two similar but different accounts. Those differences can be a problem from an accuracy standpoint but you also have the common information. When the information from thousands of observations is say 75% identical/or similar in key ways then it gains much credibility and it becomes quasi-factual. As these similar observetions keep piling up it is as close to empirical proof as is possible in these areas.
The entire christian religion has zero reported direct observations, yet people put their faith in it.Why?--only God knows!
OBE's-NDE's and past life regressions have thousands of living people who all have reported numerous details in common. Which one does common sense warrent faith in? I'll go with the people of whom I can look in to their eye as they recount their experiences and take what they have to say under seroius consideration. That is precisely what I have done myself.
My own NDE was a life changing event in that I immediately became aware that what the bible has to say regarding the afterlife is just not the case. It forced me to take the hardest look inside myself if I wanted to be at peace with my own set of beliefs. It became painfully obvious that the christian faith is based on nothing but cunjecture on the part of people who had literally a tiny fraction of the info we have at our disposal in this day and age. In my mind God would want us to utilize the observations and information we have in this time and base our belief systems on that. That is just what I have done and I have been at total peace since.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely correct Chris!!! I put my stock in those OBE/NDE'ers who in my opinion are eyewitnesses to something fantastic. Just exactly what this fantastic might be is up for scrutiny but I still would rather consider their statements over any of the canonized tripe circulating in our globe today. Another supportive observation is that these completely disparate people report similar things.
ReplyDeleteChris says belief comes from making observations with our own eyes.
ReplyDeleteIn one sense, everything comes down to this: we simply must believe what our eyes tell us. We take things in through the senses, reason, come back to reality apprehended through the senses, confirm or deny, reason some more...the senses play the vital bridge.
Without a first belief in the data coming through this bridge, and continual reversion to the data coming through this bridge, everything may as well be an illusion.
We choose to believe even before we have "proof."
Sorry, had to copy, delete, edit and re-post.
ReplyDeleteTake a cursory look at our daily experience from the moment we wake up, till we drop off to sleep.
ReplyDeleteIt's practically guaranteed that we live believing the data coming through the senses. If not we'd be unable to move.
I simply must believe Bus no. 356 is going where it implies it's going.
I simply must believe that what was shown on TV was an actual earthquake in Japan.
Choosing to wait till all the answers come in (we have to believe that too) means it's going to be a long wait indeed.
There are many interesting paths that lead from this point.
ReplyDeleteOne could ask about what happens to the data that comes via the senses. The signals from the eyes to the depths of the central nervous system can be traced. The signals flowing in the other direction can also be traced. Such pathways are clear from a biological point of view.
Human experience indicates that much more happens.
- What happens when this data is mishandled?
- When is the mishandling a malfunction of the organs?
- When is it a malfunction of the mind (mistaken reasoning)?
- When is it a malfunction of a moral order (of character), which we refer to as evil?
- Could these different kinds of malfunction be the result of deliberate choice?
Another path explores other bridges to the human person.
ReplyDelete- Is it only data via the senses that can demand assent of the human being?
Chris had an OBE/NDE experience. He has given assent to data that seems to have come via other channels. He is not unique in having such an experience.
Are there other channels that operate outside the context of an OBE/NDE experience?
For practical purposes, we could listen to the speech of Steve Jobs given in Stanford University. Among other things, he points out:
- the need to believe (by implication in an ultimate purpose, an ultimate resolution)
- that it's harder to connect the dots looking forward, but much easier looking backward.
This could almost be a recast of the words of Augustine of Hippo centuries earlier: faith is believing in what we don't see, and the reward of faith is seeing what we believe.
Does this "believing and then seeing" sequence explain Martin Luther King's speech, "I have a dream"?
Does it explain road walked by the frail and fragile Mahathma Gandhi, who took on the might of the British Empire, with weapons of truth and non-violence, believing that he would win freedom, and inspiring millions of others to believe him, even if they didn't quite believe the power of the weapons?
It seems other bridges to the human being exist. Whenever the rubber has met the road in the past, and when it does in the present, human beings continue to act and produce results believing the data coming via other bridges, despite the data through the senses sending a completely contrary message.
Everyone who has taken a beating, in the name truth, can testify to that.
It would be something if we actually achieve a digital immortality, all the while there being a vibrant and very much alive eternal dimension awaiting each of us when our bodies finally wear out.
ReplyDeleteBut hey, what's very large numbers when compared with other very large numbers anyway? I just don't want to believe in a bridge that is delusional or false and be left with no numbers at all.
ReplyDeleteHey guys, just watched Ray Kurzweil's "Transcendent Man". Very provocative. Featured a few people I've had experience with as well.
ReplyDeleteThere is acute perception contained in Bon Jovi's song: Keep the faith
ReplyDeleteThe lyrics are here: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/b/bon+jovi/keep+the+faith_20022217.html
Maybe the gems of truth within, found resonance in many young hearts, and as in my case, has been cherished since then.
The data that came via the ears when hearing the lyrics, or via the eyes when reading the lyrics, provoked something bigger than the mere arrangement of musical notes, or letters of the alphabet, or a mere arrangement of words.
Something leaped off the song, and went straight inside.
Patrick, I hardly think that people ordinarily set out to believe falsehoods. Error usually propagates with some admixture of truth inside as the enabling quality.
ReplyDeleteImpersonation illustrates this very well. It is not necessary to replicate every detail of the person in question, just a few key details. With this the impersonator finds the acceptance required; the opening of the doors of hearts and minds (and in many cases bank accounts, safes and much else.)
We humans are poorly equipped to examine each and every argument, if only for the lack of time. So much of our lives run on faith.
The truth, often then, is discovered, after the effects of what was false had fully played itself out with effects that simply could not be ignored. Maybe, for years prior to that, people lived trying to ignore or escape the obvious.
One example is the experience of Winston Churchill. He had long spoken against the evils of Nazism. But he kept losing election after election until the schemes and designs of the Nazi regime became obvious and simply could not be ignored. The price of blindness or evasion had become too high.
A fictitious example of with this theme of blindness and evasion, at about the same time in history, has been excellently portrayed in the book, "The Remains of the day" by Kazuo Ishiguro.
I recommend with equal vigor, the film adaptation, starring Anthony Hopkins, Emma Thompson and one of my favorite childhood heroes, Superman aka Christopher Reeve.
A concluding question: if we as humans are so liable to deception and manipulation, how then can we avoid this and the disasters that often follow as a consequence?
I think many people are perfectly satisfied in a corrupt belief system knowing full well that the dogma in which they have placed their faith is not the 100% "truth". Because in many cases "truth" is relative and people have an inate need to believe in something higher than themselves.
ReplyDeleteDo we want to establish what makes us unique as humans and consider that part of consciousness?
ReplyDeleteDo animals have belief systems? I think to some degree they do in a primitive way.
Can a dog or cat know "truth"? Or are they purely reactionary and responsive to stimulation?
I've been investigating the differences between "life","conscoiusness" and "soul".
ReplyDeleteIf you want to quantify consciousness then you need to establish what part of it. Consciousness seems to be multi-faceted. There is the "spark" or physical energy source that powers cells. I think this would be the easiest of all the facetes to synthesize. Then at some point a system to manage this cluster of cells is needed this system seems to be tied to basic DNA instructions. Then at some point a higher system turns on to govern the management system Kind of like a layered operating ststem. Again this governor must be driven by DNA at the basic level. Maybe consciousness is controlled and "handed out" by the DNA--It must be. So isolating consciousness may very well play out in the interpretation of genome mapping.
Just got back from the ER. I'm fine for now but I remember one predominant thought as I was being examined by the doctors; just how much I resented my biology and how limited I am by this present containment. I am stuck inside this body with no provision for backup. What a perilous existence we all share. Future generations will look upon us and marvel over how we lived, risking everything. Reckless mavericks all.
ReplyDeleteI consider Ray Kurzweil's timeline and think, "Oh, I can make that. I'll surely survive that long.". I would guess that's my "faith" for what are the odds even if I can deliver myself on time?
http://www.transhumanist.com/volume1/moravec.htm
ReplyDeleteWorth a look, even if it's dated. Perhaps especially so.
Wrenj wrote:
ReplyDelete"A concluding question: if we as humans are so liable to deception and manipulation, how then can we avoid this and the disasters that often follow as a consequence?"
In a word, "information".
As evidenced by declining religious populations, it's difficult to decieve an informed population. Even simple lessons learned by kids sharing experiences on YouTube, we are an informed network of eyewitnesses and it's okay to question. Less and less is finding strength in the occult and esoteric. In fact, I would presume such labeling to be a weakness as throngs of individuals can google and then blog about whatever the topic. If subterfuge or lack of substance is discovered, the motivation to persist decreases.
I delight that this is happening on its own naturally, so no one group or party can claim it for their own. This is a first for our species and we're seeing oppression erode as an evolutionary consequence.
Guys, that link I posted a little while ago touches on consciousness emerging in artificial platforms as well. Awareness/sentience/consciousness would all be classed as something greater than the sum of its parts correct?
ReplyDeleteThe only problem I have with people getting their "truth" form Google and the info-sphere out there is that so often information is manipulated and dis-information put forward as hard fact. Most people will look something up one time and take what they found as fact because it was from the internet or wikipedia.Honestly when you do a search how many different sources do you seek out to make sure that you are getting a well rounded less biased interpretation of a subject? I rarely look further than the first page or two of hits.
ReplyDeleteI have found so many falshoods and untruths being put out on line. I really wonder about the motives behind this sometimes.
As our society becomes more and more reliant on the highly filtered and shaped information available through just a few major social media sights it has the potential to turn us into a bunch of brainwashed automatons.
We really are now subject to a new form of opression through manipulation of our social media sites and what is put in front of us when we query the almighty Google.
Patrick, have you taken all the facts into account to see if Ray Kurzweil's hypotheses meets tests of adequacy?
ReplyDeleteWe have seen the existence of other bridges to the human being. The article you referred to extrapolates on the basis of comparing trends in computing to the capabilities of visible structures that explain one bridge.
Ray Kurzweil does not take into account other bridges, which repeatedly challenge the theses that there's only one bridge.
Chris's experience bears this out. Take his description of motion. Without additional technology or tools, it happened as he willed it.
Another question: where is the evidence of declining religious populations in the world?
ReplyDeleteThe most severe declines in population currently are in parts of Eastern Europe. These regions were officially atheistic for close to a century.
The other declines being encountered are in Western Europe which again has rejected outright Marxism but not atheism. Japan too is declining.
Now take developing geographies: South America, the Middle East, Africa, Asia. There seems to be a remarkable correlation between religious belief and population growth.
And remember in most of these countries, information is accessible like never before.
Take only Western Europe or North America. Which sub-populations show the greatest sign of growth in these regions? Again one sees the correlation between religious belief and population growth.
Correlations do not necessarily indicate causation, but there are correlations that require deeper study, since they are simply impossible to ignore.
Check the facts for yourself and see where they lead to.
Chris has expressed something that I am unable to ignore.
ReplyDeleteWe have no way of knowing "a priori" about the truth of something. Then data comes in, reasoning takes place and conclusions are drawn. How do we know, our conclusions are right? In the physical sciences, there's only one way: testing. We test the conclusion for adequacy, to see if it explains the facts.
Interestingly, the progress of science shows the complete overturning of established theories with remarkable regularity. Newton's laws are not invalid now. They simply seem inadequate at certain distances and speeds. They seem to give way, in certain conditions, to other laws.
If this, which is really commonsense, applies in the physical sciences, why should it not apply to accessing information on the internet? There are many points of potential error and manipulation between creation, transmission, delivery and assimilation.
Journalists, filmmakers, lawyers and programmers (to name just a few) can attest to it. The New York Times has experienced it, in areas related to news reporting as well reading the market correctly for its survival as a business enterprise. The US government is experiencing it at the moment on domestic as well as international fronts. Even the Pope seems unable to escape unscathed.
To take the phrase popular in Google, "Do no evil!" as an established fact, rather than as an aspiration of the people working there, is to either believe that everyone within is an angel, or in some mysterious way, incapable of mistakes.
A case in point, is Warren Buffet's announcement about a successor and how that choice in retrospect, seems to have been inadequate. I can hardly name another man, with sounder judgement in his field, and less resources to provide access to information for decision making in his field, than the Oracle of Omaha.
Access to information is part of it, but does it explain all of it?
You may have me here Wrenj... "Making half vast assumptions based on half vast data", (that's a pun). My data is old in regards to declining religious foundations in the world. I will have to check my sources. It was presented to me about 10 years ago and I can see it bearing out here at home as well. The local churches are dwindling with an aging adherent group.
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, might I recommend www.godisimaginary.com or www.whywontgodhealamputees.com
Okay, a cursory browsing landed me on the wiki for religious demographics worldwide and I found the trends about two-thirds of the way down... Shows a steady decline in growth. Now, there's not a recession of rates but at least the growth is slowing. Chris suggested that data available online and particularly in the wiki's are suspect so I may be propagating falsehoods here, but this is the URL nonetheless:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups
I can also understand an increase in numbers reported by virtue of newly freed demographic groups. With the fall of the iron curtain, I'm sure the numbers of say, the Orthodox Christians have exploded when in reality their ranks have not changed appreciably or have declined. Poorer nations may be reporting increases simply because their data gathering capabilities have gotten better?
Also to quote the wiki page, "Studies conducted by the Pew Research Center have found that, generally, poorer nations had a larger proportion of citizens who found religion to be very important than richer nations, with the exceptions of the United States and Kuwait."
Can you illuminate any particular demographic data that would suggest a resurgence of religious faith?
Hmmm, be interesting if the whole world turned Buddhist. I've never heard of atrocities committed in the name of Buddha -lol
As for Kurzweil's lack of alternate bridges, you're correct and his film "Transcendent Man" gives face time to plenty of detractors, who explain why his ideas won't work.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes, that website is pretty monobridgian (new word) too. Nevertheless, I thought it was encouraging to read. It built bridges of imagination and design into my own mind and let me think of new things in a new way. Like taking a step back and reassessing what I know in the light of what I just learned and trying to envision the possibilities. It made me happy. Especially seeing how old that paper was and feeling just how contemporary it still is.
As for what Chris experienced; that alone pulled me away from a battle hardened atheistic shell. (It was his experience that I mentioned in the introduction to this blog). I am willing to consider such things as valid…but it is also my duty and responsibility to consider every possible confound to it as well. I don't state as fact that it was a fantastic event caused chemically, I state as conjecture that it might have been. To not add that as a possibility, to me, seems reckless.
For example, in the past I have experienced Astral Travel. Or at least I thought I did. I have experienced motion in a fantastic way in "real time" and in other planes. ("real time" means the world that we live in now). My experiences were similar to those of others who claim to have done the same thing i.e., "astral travel". Could I prove any of it to myself? No. If I could have gone into my neighbors house and peered into their closet and then later really go there in the flesh and see exactly the same thing (having never seen it before), then that would've been proof for me. Did anything of the sort happen? Maybe. I revisited my old hometown last year. I was driven down streets and neighborhoods that I haven't seen in over 20 years. The area has seen tremendous growth in that time. I felt as if I knew what it looked like, having never seen the new growth. I explained it to the person with me BEFORE arriving at certain places and buildings. I was eerily accurate. Proof? Maybe. I am open to possible confounds that could offer a more rational explanation. It does however make me smile.
Is there anything better that when your ice cold cat jumps on your lap fresh from outdoors all plush and soft with her thick cold fur and cold wet nose all while purring at top volume and so gratefull for your attention?
ReplyDeleteVery few things, very few indeed.
ReplyDeleteI think there are many different causations for the decline in the "church". How does the attendance at church reflect the upward trend in population numbers world wide? Also I have to think the whole pedophilia scandal still going on in the Catholic church and others too is a huge driver of dropping attendance.
ReplyDeleteAlso the church delivers an outdated message as they try to reconcile their teachings to align with modern thought but the gap just continues to widen. We live in an age of high technology etc and the church has nothing in common with modern culture.
Maybe we should start a new religion with updated beliefs and "holy scripture" to appeal to the modern masses. I think a fresh look at spirituality and the human condition would proove to be wildly popular in this modern era.
Wrenj, you referred to a culture at Google of "do no evil" is that their corporate motto? do they actually ascribe to "do no evil" as a dogma of corporate policy? It sounds quasi-religious.
ReplyDeletePatrick, thank you for saving my musings from the innards of blogger. There's still a post that's missing. Blogger has cut me deep like donkey put it in Shrek...LOL
ReplyDeleteChris, "Do no evil" is a slogan coined by some engineer in Google. It's not a dogmatic axiom. It's an aspiration, a noble aspiration.
ReplyDeleteI do not think that they meant to imply that only they "do no evil" while other companies or the rest of us are doing otherwise.
I was only suggesting that neither Google nor we should get carried away by confusing a noble aspiration for an established fact.
They've been trying to live up to it especially in countries where religious, economic and political freedom is still a luxury. Google’s publicly expressed, primary mission “to organize the world‘s information and make it universally accessible and useful” can become tough in a world full of interests with goals other than truth.
How is it possible to "organize" if you can't even lay your hands on the information for instance? There may be some obvious places that come to mind. There are some non-obvious ones too. I found the following interesting:
http://southtownstar.suntimes.com/news/4320447-418/obama-administration-denying-requests-for-information.html
Patrick, you talk about seeing religious decline around you. I would not disagree with that. If you lived in other parts of the world, you'd have a different opinion with the number of churches, mosques and temples going up.
ReplyDeleteImagine if you were living in a land of sunshine, beaches, music and more legal and illegal use of marijuana. You'd find this:
http://www.real-jamaica-vacations.com/jamaican-religion.html
On a more serious note, I found the following very interesting:
ReplyDeletehttp://richleebruce.com/mystat.html
Other pages in the same site seem to suggest an overall decline in atheism. There are also some very interesting remarks about the correlations between education and religion. Apparently the correlation is the reverse of popular assumptions. The author makes no attempt to hide his beliefs.
I may be wrong, but I suspect that the greatest decline in most religions in North America and Europe has been encountered by those streams within each that has most actively tried to "modernize" themselves by adopting more politically correct beliefs and practices.
It seems to be that the more they try to become like "everybody else", the less there is that is unique about them, leading actually to less of them.
I was surprised to learn Jamaica takes a dim view on drug use and that it's illegal there. My thoughts were that it was a stoner paradise but that assumption was dead wrong. Personally I do not use street drugs. If you were wondering if my "astral trips" were drug induced, they weren't. All of my "fantastic events" were experienced with a clear mind.
ReplyDeleteMy use of the term "chemical" when it comes to a possible explanation for fantastic events simply implies that our brain is electro-chemical. Therefore chemistry be it natural or artificial is still chemistry. Just thought to define this. My previous use of the phrase was assuming a natural chemistry.
ReplyDeleteAgain Chris is onto something about pedophilia and it's role in church attendance, or at the very least the perception about churches.
ReplyDeleteBut here again is a telling description of an encounter recounted by the Catholic bishop of New York:
http://blog.archny.org/
Earlier I mentioned the potential and possibility of error as well as manipulation in the creation, transmission, delivery and assimilation of information. I think I should add one more word there: editing.
It seems if the facts were fully published, people would have more to fear from schools and families than churches.
A Harvard Professor, who's been known to sue Catholic cardinals and bishops had this interesting take about the pedophilia scandals and the role of the current Pope:
http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2010/s3026520.htm
Earlier, I had said that describing the 20th century as "a century of blood" would not be too far off the mark.
Institutions of all kinds, religious ones included, are full of people who live in a universe where evil is not only around but inside us humans. It often feels like a battle of cosmic proportions. People, institutions, societies and entire civilizations are capable of mistakes (deliberate as well as unintended) with very tragic consequences.
If we go by how much evil has actually occurred and by how much evil gets accepted and acknowledged, how much responsibility is taken, how many apologies and how much restitution (in some form) is made, and how much reform is undertaken to minimize future recurrence, being anything else seems hard to match being Catholic.
Imagine being from Russia and knowing this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
However I have read that the drug "Ketamine" induces an OBE. It was used as an anesthetic but discontinued due to patient complaints. It's only use is veterinary currently. People have experimented with its effects however. If I were to try drug use, this would be the one. I would love to study the OBE in a controlled setting and get some real data on this phenomenon, be it rational science or fantastic event or both.
ReplyDeletePatrick, I'm glad to hear that your experiences were not induced by chemicals. I personally have had no such experiences.
ReplyDeleteWell, as a kid, I used to get this ringing sensation in my ears, and earnestly wished (and half believed) that if I pulled my shirt off and jumped from a window, it would just be like in Superman the movie, when Lex Luthor gets across to him using ordinarily inaudible frequencies.
At that time, my belief in Superman was certain, despite my class teacher, and several adults, stating unequivocally to me and a group of like-minded friends that Superman was just a movie.
This brings me back to the topic of the Singularity. I am convinced that a universe where a greater integration of machines in the life of human beings, will be like Star Wars: amazing spaceships, robots, weapons, planets and dramatic battles.
My favorite character remains Hans Solo.
I intend to watch Superman the movie and Bruce Almighty for some entertainment but also to recall some revealing dialogue about aspects of being human.
ReplyDeleteSuperman is unable to read the mind of Lex Luthor. Bruce is unable to compel his girlfriend to love him.
So far neither of the obstacles have been overcome with technology. Which is not to say that manipulation does not happen, or is not happening, using less than noble means.
Researching a little bit on proofs for OBE's and I found James Randi. Want to make a million dollars? http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi
ReplyDeleteCompared to how our presidents did things 20+ years ago and despite what anyone might say, we are in a time of government openness and transparity like never before in history.
ReplyDeleteThe thing you will find with many people who have a NDE is that what they experienced became their truth and that is fine for those people including myself. I have no need at all to try and prostheletize my experience and tell the world and become a missionary for the NDE people.
ReplyDeleteI have come to see the big picture and now have a complete understanding of religious motivation and drive. I am at 100% peace with dying and with the whole death experience. Death for me is actually an opportunity to become free of this restrictive brain and thought proscess by returning to my natural 100% complete state. So far out of all my human experiences dying was so awesome and so superior to anything else that it is truely incomperable. The closest analogy I can draw is to take the best sex you've ever had combined with the best drugs you've ever done and any thing else that blew your mind and multiply it by 1000 times and you will be near to the dying experience. The feeling is indescribably good.
With the context I have now I find it kind or hard to want to encourage people to seek life extending treatments from their doctors once they get past 70 or so. I am not endorsing euthanasia but there is just no payoff in extending your life past the time that you are able to get real enjoyment out of your body.
ReplyDeleteBearing that in mind I can now see a problem with maintaining conscoiusness outside of your body trappped in some computer RAM etc.If you were to do that you would possibly be stuck in the computer and unable to restore your soul. In a sense it could deny your soul an intellect and a life spirit. Just my own thoughts--I still fancy the idea of being able to assign consciousness at will.
Kind of like "Flatliners" meets "Tron" and then someone trips over the cord and...
ReplyDeleteChris, on a lighter note, I think Patrick's discovery of the possibility of a million dollars is something worth looking at.
ReplyDeleteWe can form a team. You two have had the experiences. I come along as the resident skeptic to lend credibility to the team...LOL
On a more serious note, here's something worth a second look:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-after-neardeath-experience-boy-writes-book-heaven-is-real-20110210,0,2566980.story
I find the comments of the lady anchor intriguing. Is it little kids or us adults who have a longer history of lies and manipulation?
As soon as I read about the book sales and movie deal I knew I was being hustled a bill of goods. You find this stuff all over this country, like a traveling circus, hitting churches and selling books, tapes, videos, hats, shirts, etc.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if little kids in China or Ethiopia or Columbia see a caucasian jesus when they have NDE's? Especially if they're raised Buddhist or some other non christian faith...
ReplyDeleteI wonder if there's any correlation between unemployment and stories like this (with book sales)?
ReplyDeleteLOL...Does this fit with your suspicion of an economic explanation for everything? How would you explain Chris's story then?
ReplyDeleteWhat is becoming clear is that some people have had OBEs/NDEs whether they met Jesus or Elvis Presley.
There seems to be not only bridges to the human being, other than the nervous pathways, but a whole level of experience and existence that matches nothing we seem to be familiar with.
The question is "Can a test based on purely material changes (temperature, position and other material properties) suffice to adequately cover an experience that seems to overcome materiality?"
ReplyDeleteThis reminds me of a letter written by a bunch of Physics undergraduates to the creators of Superman who had claimed that he moves faster than light.
The students proved with rigor and exactitude why by Einstein's theory of relativity, this was impossible. They received a reply saying "You deal with theory, whereas we deal with facts!"
What then is an adequate "scalpel for the soul?"
Well, I still think the best test for OBE's is the "what's in the box?" test. I may be a heretical skeptic but I am human and I still have an expiration date. So, I'm still pushing for some evidence rather than discarding all of this as just so much rubbish. People do experience something. I want to know what that something is exactly. All this test requires is information. Even though these fantastic events introduce wildly new concepts of reality, information is something that remains pretty consistent. So telling me what's in the box should be a simple affair yet one that will turn science around.
ReplyDeleteA cool million would be a bonus too.
Scalpel for the soul, I like that. If this and other experiments fail, we would do well to be keen on exactly how they failed. After all, this is illuminating subconscious processes and ultimately conscious awareness too.
ReplyDeleteThank you Patrick. I use borrowed phrases to appear to have something within...the skull.
ReplyDeletePlease, could we start a new post? This seems to have become quite long. I think we have arrive at some stable points.
However, you could summarize the points we've discussed here, in the next post, to create a sense of continuity.
My contribution to the summary are three points. I suggest:
- Claims of OBE/NDE experiences are abundant.
- These and other experiences, indicate the existence of other sources of and bridges for data to the human being, apart from purely biological structures.
- These claims need investigating.
- The question is how?
I can't wait to get to the part of talking about Light Sabers, Obi Wan Kenobi and the Force...LOL.
I have come across several accounts of operating room personell placing signs on top of equipment and shelf tops which would only be visable if viewed from the ceiling. These people do tell of dead patients comming back and reporting the signs. This has been repeated many times and you can easily call it up on a google search.
ReplyDeleteAs far as seeing Jesus goes the kid either saw his spirit guide and confused it for Jesus or he somehow willed Jesus to appear and he did.
I realize I speak about stuff that is pure conjecture but in my reality it works.
Wrenj--Do you have a background in any sort of engineering by chance? I have a very interesting idea to modulate the existing water in the air anywhere to create a holigraphic display or any shape display out of thin air.
ReplyDeleteIt just needs some lab time somewhere to figure out the details. The idea in a nutshell is to create a small xmtr that can transmit just the right frequency to break the h2o mollecules suspended in the air and create a fog on whicjh an immage can be projected vie a tiny lazer or led projector like in a pen sized device.
ReplyDeleteI also have a viable idea for the lightsaber utilizing light over sound technology to create a conductive path and again--- in thin air.
ReplyDeleteNo, but I studied some Physics and Chemistry along the way.
ReplyDeleteIt would be something if we could test out your ideas. What would it take?
This is worth a second look:
ReplyDeletehttp://candychang.com/before-i-die-in-nola/
I need a true 0 MHz-Xray transmitter good for a kilowatt PEP. A small assortment of antenna making supplies and an ocilloscope etc--Just your basic work bench and small lab stuff. I already have much of it but not the transmitter.
ReplyDeleteI already have figured out a design for a high voltage but super small power supply to fit in a standard dd flashlight housing.
That wall is really cool. I think it shows how much we all have in common with our neibours.
ReplyDeleteChris, "0 MHz to X-Ray transmitter", you mean a literal DC to light broadbanded transmitter? I don't think such a thing exists. After microwave you have to generate your spectrum in different ways. Like HeNe reactions for red monochromatic light for example. X-Rays require high voltage and gasses for oscillation I believe. Your antennas are apertures instead of resonant lengths of metal as well.
ReplyDeleteThought: wouldn't a water vapor imaging system be more affected by audio frequencies? Consider shock normals on sonic bodies in atmosphere.
Shock / sonic effects would vary the pressure and hence condense out the vapor (make cloud). RF and higher would heat the vapor and have the opposite effect of condensation.
ReplyDeleteStarted a new post. Look for April 8, 2011
ReplyDelete